Hand Groupings

Questions and discussion about PokerTracker 4 for Windows

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Hand Groupings

Postby PJs Ronin » Tue May 01, 2012 11:10 pm

I'm referring only to hole cards and only to tournaments.

Does PT4 recognize groupings (Sklansky?) for hero holecards?
Can these groups be accessed in reports, for example, to cluster/count hands in these groups?
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby Barlin63 » Wed May 02, 2012 5:12 am

+1. Maybe also presented in a range visualizer.

Given the posts and the reactions I have a slight idea that the development team is not fully aware about the possibilities of the Holdem Range visualizer.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby kraada » Wed May 02, 2012 9:39 am

I'm not certain exactly what you are referring to - there are no built in groupings by types of hole cards into PT4 at this point in time. Could either of you expand a little more by what you mean here?
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby PJs Ronin » Wed May 02, 2012 6:29 pm

Holecards can be combined into 'value' groups. I'm sure you've seen this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_starting_hands

I notice that within the stats list there are stats such as 'id_hand_rank_group' but these refer to an end result rather than holecards. So, is there any way of quantifying holecards against something like Sklansk's or Helmuth's hand groupings and then being able to use that information.

As an aside, it would also make sense to use that grouping to sort report columns containing holecards so that the order is AA, KK, QQ etc rather than AA, AK, AQ etc.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby StevenM » Wed May 02, 2012 7:19 pm

PJ - I am friends with Sklansky, I used to work with him and Mason Malmuth when I managed the business of the Two Plus Two Forums prior to working at PokerTracker. I know David and Mason better than almost anyone else you will encounter, they are both good people. It might surprise you that David Sklansky does not use his own hand rankings while playing, that was written for limit holdem cash games to help explain concepts, it was never intended to be used as a strict hand value guide. Instead you may want to take a look at the Sklansky Chubikov weighting system which we use in the Equity Calculator which was designed for pushing with a small stack (which is what most tournaments are) as discussed in this article -http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sss/1097/1/. If you are already aware of the SC rankings, then you are way ahead of the game and don't need my insightful help ;-)

PS: We do not intend to introduce value group ranking in our default reports at this time, but it is theoretically possible to do this via a custom report with a whole lot of programing.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby PJs Ronin » Wed May 02, 2012 8:49 pm

Goodness... I did not expect such a forceful recourse to higher authority. In view of your close relationship to two poker doyens, perhaps you can ask them to give definitive examples of where PT4 can be of assistance to SnG players both during the game and post game. That would save me a hell of a lot of navel gazing.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby StevenM » Thu May 03, 2012 1:13 pm

PJs Ronin wrote:Goodness... I did not expect such a forceful recourse to higher authority. In view of your close relationship to two poker doyens, perhaps you can ask them to give definitive examples of where PT4 can be of assistance to SnG players both during the game and post game. That would save me a hell of a lot of navel gazing.



S&M are not SNG experts. Well, that isn't totally true, David's favorite thing to do online was play SNGs to kill time, Mason doesn't play online though. 2+2's Harrington on Online Cash Games book uses PokerTracker exclusively as the database source, and many coaching sites are preparing to use PokerTracker 4 in their upcoming content. Additionally there is little difference if you watch a HEM training video on your favorite coaching site, the concepts are usually the same, the differences only exist in which reports are used or occasionally terminology. CardRunners is owned by the same people who own HEM, hence you probably would not find PokerTracker content there - but the concepts are applied in the same way for the most part.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby PJs Ronin » Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 pm

So, that would be 'nothing'?

Why then, when someone raises a discussion point about using PT for tournies does it rapidly become a dead end?

Don't forget, I'm here to help.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby Barlin63 » Thu May 03, 2012 6:44 pm

I am sorry but I agree with PJ about the sorting of our reports. If I want to sort on Hole Cards I want to sort on their strength and not on the high card. Either it can be done by assigning Hand groups or a ranking to every possible holding. That Slansky himself is not using his valuable ranking system does not mean that I lot of other people do the same. Look for instance at Holdem Indicator and Holdem Tournament which are both cramped with Slansky hand ratings. Personally for me it does not matter as long as I can sort on hand strength which I cannot today.
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Re: Hand Groupings

Postby StevenM » Thu May 03, 2012 10:52 pm

Barlin63 wrote:. Look for instance at Holdem Indicator and Holdem Tournament which are both cramped with Slansky hand ratings. Personally for me it does not matter as long as I can sort on hand strength which I cannot today.


We do not compete with the two products which you named above, these products are for a very different marketplace than what PT4 aims for. I hope this post will explain why...

You commented on hand strength in the post above, this leads me to assume that you may not have seen our equity simulator and hand range modeling system yet. Modern poker science has accepted that hand selection preflop is relative, not absolute, that is why we created the Hand Range Modeling tool. You will find that we included two hand range models by default. As an example of our reasoning choose a range of 10% in the equity calculator. Now switch between the two models. Notice the difference in weighting? Next try creating a polarized and a depolarized pre-flop range (these ranges will be available for downloading from the Warehouse soon, custom ranges have not been added yet) - the results are night and day different. With PokerTracker 4 we chose to follow the modern thought process on hand weighting as evidenced by our hand range modeling tools, this is the future. Antiquated static charts designed for limit holdem cash games are no longer needed, S&M also advised not playing by the charts, even back then they were fully aware of how fluid and situational poker is, this is also why David Sklansky did not include a starting hand chart in his book No Limit Holdem Theory & Practice co-written by Ed Miller. Great modern players do not choose hands to play based on value, the choose based on how likely they are to stack their opponents or outplay them by taking command of position - this is the model that we chose to follow based on feedback from all the great player consultants who worked with us on the creation of PT4, we stand by this decision proudly knowing that it was the right choice.

With that said, as I explained earlier in this thread you can in fact do this on your own using a combination of custom reports and stats for grouping. That is the beauty of PokerTracker, you are permitted to create your own stats and reports to perform functions that we do not include by default. If you disagree with our developers and massive team of poker consultants, then you are free to blaze your own path - and we will even help you do so (while advising against the path when necessary, but you can always ignore our advice).

All my best....
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