complete rip off

General discussion of PokerTracker 3.

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Re: complete rip off

Postby kasvi » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:08 am

Yeah I agree. I once decided to buy a software but I should have not. Downloading it from Piratebay would have been enough. Database crashes, still no hud for ongame. Its not working and its quite useless at the moment. Would ask for refund but guess im too lazy and not used to complain.. made a bad decision and i am paying for it.

ps. support is good, they answer your quesions but doesnt change the fact PT3 suck bigtime at the moment. Im quite disappointed.
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Re: complete rip off

Postby APerfect10 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:27 am

Customer satisfaction is our top priority and we will do anything within our control to ensure that.

There is A LOT more involved in determining when to release software. Decisions need to be made in advance, pressure by the community at large, etc. (and that is an over generalization). It is MUCH more difficult than simply saying, OK, software is bug free, time to release. With that said, if we would have been aware of the largest issue (HUD lag while playing many tables) we probably would've pushed release back a week or two; unfortunately, this issue did not really come up in alpha and best testing.

We are well aware of the current issues with PokerTracker 3 and I can assure you that we have been working tirelessly to get the next build out and for it to be stable. We have made very good progress, ask any of our alpha testers who should be able to attest that we have been working very hard and making good progress. We are hoping to have a public beta of build 3 out early this week which should be more stable than build 2. If the public beta goes well, we will re-release it as stable by the end of the week.

Build 3 should resolve any lag issues that you are experiencing and a few other minor issues have been resolved as well. Once build 3 is stable, we plan on implementing a database cache which will dramatically increase HUD data retrieval speeds.

We are not satisfied that a few users are not happy and are having issues. It further saddens me that after 5+ years of being the industry leader that these users will not give us the benefit of the doubt for a few weeks/months. If we are still having these same issues in a few months then please get back to me; I am pretty confident that they will be resolved as fast as humanly possible.

Anyone that expected PokerTracker 3 to be released and have no issues does not understand software very well and/or are spoiled by the stability of PokerTracker Holdem v2. Let me remind you that:

  1. PokerTracker 2 has been around for 5+ years therefore it should be rock solid stable
  2. PokerTracker 3 is a complete code rewrite (written from scratch)
  3. For me personally, PT3 is more stable at initial release than a competing software has been several months after their release. (I am not condoning it by any stretch)
In five plus years, everyone will be clamoring about how solid PT3 is/was and this will be a mere lost memory. I challenge you to stick with us and I can promise that you will not be disappointed in the weeks, months, and year to come.

Best regards,

Derek Charles, Co-Owner
PokerTracker Software, LLC.
APerfect10
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Re: complete rip off

Postby Hicham » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:44 pm

Some of us are new customers, so we have no idea of how great PT2 was the last five years. So to me the fact that PT 2 was great, and your work was good doesn't help me.

The product seems to be made for people who know how it works. There is no tutorial or good manual, explaining set up and stats. This is the biggest flaw for me, maybe even more annoying then the bugs. I have tons of stats, but what do they mean? How can I use them to make more money? Is the only way to find that out, read forums like 2+2 and watch amateurish videos by friendly customers?

So it not only is buggy for me, but also hard to understand.

But still I like the new look, the graphs and all that. And I believe you guys are trying hard. But please don't forget that the product is not just there for experienced users.

Don't get worked about the impatience some have here. But don't forget to look at our side if you can.

Good luck bug hunting, and I hope your project gets back on track!
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Re: complete rip off

Postby Erasa » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:15 am

APerfect10 wrote:Anyone that expected PokerTracker 3 to be released and have no issues does not understand software very well and/or are spoiled by the stability of PokerTracker Holdem v2. Let me remind you that:

  1. PokerTracker 2 has been around for 5+ years therefore it should be rock solid stable
  2. PokerTracker 3 is a complete code rewrite (written from scratch)
  3. For me personally, PT3 is more stable at initial release than a competing software has been several months after their release. (I am not condoning it by any stretch)
In five plus years, everyone will be clamoring about how solid PT3 is/was and this will be a mere lost memory. I challenge you to stick with us and I can promise that you will not be disappointed in the weeks, months, and year to come.

Best regards,

Derek Charles, Co-Owner
PokerTracker Software, LLC.


Wow - on top of all the issues you have heaped upon us you have the audacity to insult us. I am quite certain that I am not the only with many years of commercial software development in my background. Yes; I manage a large software development group responsible for major financial applications that is used in over 30% of the hospitals and countless clinics in the USA that have gone through at least 4 major technology shifts that required a complete rewrite (DOS - Windows 3.1 (16bit) - Windows XP(32-bit) - Internet (ASP model/Turnkey)) and guess what; you don't use incremental version upgrades when you do a rewrite from scratch. There is a well-understood implied understanding in the market place that if you go from version 2.0 to version 3.0, version 3.0 will contain everything that version 2.0 contained plus (significant) new features. If you do a rewrite from scratch, you give it a new name and start out with version 1.0 - which again is universally understood to be brand new code and thus likely to not be fully fleshed out. By your naming standards Windows Vista would have been known as DOS version 15.

You guys have earned a lot of goodwill among poker players and I am certain that a lot of us are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt - but at least be upfront about the fact that you screwed up and while you may be phenomenal programmers you are not good at marketing and handling a major transision like this. A little humility will get you a lot further rather than trying to insult us by insinuating that we do not understand the issues at hand - when it is abundantly clear that it is you guys that severely underestimated the issues at hand and don't understand how to effectively deal with it in your communcations to your customers.

Erasa
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Re: complete rip off

Postby tarix » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:19 am

Erasa wrote:you don't use incremental version upgrades when you do a rewrite from scratch. There is a well-understood implied understanding in the market place that if you go from version 2.0 to version 3.0, version 3.0 will contain everything that version 2.0 contained plus (significant) new features. If you do a rewrite from scratch, you give it a new name and start out with version 1.0 - which again is universally understood to be brand new code and thus likely to not be fully fleshed out. By your naming standards Windows Vista would have been known as DOS version 15.


You have no clue what you are talking about do you.

First of all you are too stupid to even know the lineage of the operating systems you use. It goes:
DOS -> Windows -> Windows 95 -> Windows Me
Windows NT -> Windows XP -> Windows Vista

There is no cross-over except binary compatibility for applications. Even that is pretty spotty between the DOS and NT branches.

Microsoft constantly switches around brand names and version numbers to keep their brand alive and fresh. The naming is purely market driven and has nothing to do with its feature set. Windows Vista removes more "significant" features than it adds. For example pulling 16-bit support.

It would have been a colossally stupid business decision for them to change the name of PokerTracker. As long as you can read English at an elementary school level you should have no trouble figuring out that PokerTracker 3 is a new product. Furthermore anyone who has used PT2 for several years knew long ago that the PGSQL upgrade was just a band-aid. PokerTracker would eventually need to be written from scratch.

Which is exactly what this new team did.

PT3 will be great software someday. Until then we all have access to a great piece of software right now: PokerTracker 2.

Furthermore if you can't play and win poker without the help of PT then you need to find a new job. The people complaining that PT3 is costing them money is completely unbelievable. Take responsibility for your own poor play.
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Re: complete rip off

Postby Hicham » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:34 pm

tarix wrote:
Erasa wrote:
Furthermore if you can't play and win poker without the help of PT then you need to find a new job. The people complaining that PT3 is costing them money is completely unbelievable. Take responsibility for your own poor play.


If PT doesn't help you make more money, why bother using it then? On top of that I am sure i lost money using PT3, as it crashed multiple times, lagging my whole computer,making me miss hands and fold with good stuff on the flop.

Sure, people shouldn't dramatise stuff like this, but don't attack them when they might be correct in what they are saying.
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Re: complete rip off

Postby Erasa » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:08 am

tarix wrote:[You have no clue what you are talking about do you.

First of all you are too stupid to even know the lineage of the operating systems you use. It goes:
DOS -> Windows -> Windows 95 -> Windows Me
Windows NT -> Windows XP -> Windows Vista

Furthermore if you can't play and win poker without the help of PT then you need to find a new job. The people complaining that PT3 is costing them money is completely unbelievable. Take responsibility for your own poor play.


When all else fails, resort to name calling. I wasnt attempting to map out the entire geneology and history of Windows - I was attempting to provide an example of when significant core changes in Windows forced my company to make major architectual changes. I believe I am better equipped to know those details than you are. You are not going to find too many large corporations that did a large scale roll-out of Windows Me for example; likewise with deploying Windows NT to the desktop - but frankly that wasn't my point.

If you think PokerTracker did a flawless roll-out of PT3 there isn't much I can say to change your mind - yet at least try to gauge the prevaling mood on the message boards and I think you will find your sunny assessment of the roll-out is not universally shared. My point in writing the my post was to a) suggest a little humility before accusing your users of being stupid for not thinking everything is peachy and b) suggest a different way of branding their products in the future to avoid this kind of confusion. Yes - I am fully aware that if PT3 was the only application I ever used and I had done extensive research into the real state of things I would have uncovered the things that you mention - my bad; based on all the good will the development team has accummulated in the past lead me to believe they would follow normal, generally accepted industry "best practices" in rolling out their product. I know now better and will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt until they have regained my trust.

For the record, I think PT2 was a a hell of a product and there is not doubt in due time PT3 will be leaps and bounds beyonds PT2 - but the current situation and loss of good will from a signifcant portion of their user base was completely unnecessary but perhaps not to surprising as my guess is that the folks behind these products are amazingly skilled developers with a love for poker, but much less experience (or/and interest?) in how to introduce a new product to the market place.

Unless your reading comprehension is way off, it should be clear as day that my job is not one as a professional poker player, so here is no need for me to change job based the performance of PT3. But I never made the assertion that PokerTracker is costing me money and yes - I consider myself fully responsbly for my "poor" play but what does that have to do with anything I wrote in my original message?

Regards
Erasa
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Re: complete rip off

Postby asdfg » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:47 am

Erasa wrote:
tarix wrote:[You have no clue what you are talking about do you.

First of all you are too stupid to even know the lineage of the operating systems you use. It goes:
DOS -> Windows -> Windows 95 -> Windows Me
Windows NT -> Windows XP -> Windows Vista

Furthermore if you can't play and win poker without the help of PT then you need to find a new job. The people complaining that PT3 is costing them money is completely unbelievable. Take responsibility for your own poor play.


When all else fails, resort to name calling. I wasnt attempting to map out the entire geneology and history of Windows - I was attempting to provide an example of when significant core changes in Windows forced my company to make major architectual changes. I believe I am better equipped to know those details than you are. You are not going to find too many large corporations that did a large scale roll-out of Windows Me for example; likewise with deploying Windows NT to the desktop - but frankly that wasn't my point.

If you think PokerTracker did a flawless roll-out of PT3 there isn't much I can say to change your mind - yet at least try to gauge the prevaling mood on the message boards and I think you will find your sunny assessment of the roll-out is not universally shared. My point in writing the my post was to a) suggest a little humility before accusing your users of being stupid for not thinking everything is peachy and b) suggest a different way of branding their products in the future to avoid this kind of confusion. Yes - I am fully aware that if PT3 was the only application I ever used and I had done extensive research into the real state of things I would have uncovered the things that you mention - my bad; based on all the good will the development team has accummulated in the past lead me to believe they would follow normal, generally accepted industry "best practices" in rolling out their product. I know now better and will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt until they have regained my trust.

For the record, I think PT2 was a a hell of a product and there is not doubt in due time PT3 will be leaps and bounds beyonds PT2 - but the current situation and loss of good will from a signifcant portion of their user base was completely unnecessary but perhaps not to surprising as my guess is that the folks behind these products are amazingly skilled developers with a love for poker, but much less experience (or/and interest?) in how to introduce a new product to the market place.

Unless your reading comprehension is way off, it should be clear as day that my job is not one as a professional poker player, so here is no need for me to change job based the performance of PT3. But I never made the assertion that PokerTracker is costing me money and yes - I consider myself fully responsbly for my "poor" play but what does that have to do with anything I wrote in my original message?

Regards
Erasa


Touché!
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Re: complete rip off

Postby WoolyHat » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:21 am

Derek, I don't won't to turn into a moaner, but your post is really annoying.

APerfect10 wrote:With that said, if we would have been aware of the largest issue (HUD lag while playing many tables) we probably would've pushed release back a week or two; unfortunately, this issue did not really come up in alpha and best testing.


I just don't know how you can say that. About a million people reported that the HUD was LAGing and unusable in the last few betas. It took me about 2 minutes to find some examples in your 2p2 thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4029509&highlight=lag#post4029509
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4027808&highlight=lag#post4027808
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4027332&highlight=lag#post4027332
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4031359&highlight=lag#post4031359
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4033103&highlight=lag#post4033103
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4042326&highlight=lag#post4042326
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4053920&highlight=lag#post4053920
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4054849&highlight=lag#post4054849
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4059755&highlight=lag#post4059755
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?p=4069150&highlight=lag#post4069150

I could go on. These are all from the last few betas you put out before your commercial release. I'm sorry but I just don't believe you that you guys didn't know about the LAG. You pushed on with release regardless, because of agreements with 3rd parties (I believe Josh said that) and I suspect also because of the newly found competitive pressure in your market. It just really annoys me that you are now saying "this issue did not really come up in alpha and best testing".


APerfect10 wrote:Anyone that expected PokerTracker 3 to be released and have no issues does not understand software very well and/or are spoiled by the stability of PokerTracker Holdem v2.


Gah! Stop saying that. It's really bad form. You can't blame your customers for their expectations. Have you stopped for a minute and considered where all these stupid customers who don't understand software development got these crazy expectations from? Maybe it had something to do with when you said:

"Our general goal is to support everything that you can do in PT2 + PAH prior to final release."

Or when Josh said:

"The commercial version will support all the sites that PT2 currently supports (possibly more) at launch."

Or any of the other multitude of things you guys posted on the forums over the last 4 months. You just can't turn around now and say "well, of course it doesn't do all those things! I mean, did you really expect us to be able to release some software that did all the things we said it would!!! LOL, then you clearly you don't understand software development!". You guys have created the expectations and failed to deliver on them.

It probably doesn't sound like it, but I am actually on your side. I want you guys to succeed. I think you've lost the ability to appease me with promises of future glories, because you've been doing that all year and have rarely managed to deliver. So, you're basically now trading on loyalty from PT2 and PAHUD. FWIW, that goodwill is being eroded day-by-day, and you guys really need to start delivering soon or your going to lose at least one customer, and I suspect many more.
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Re: complete rip off

Postby WoolyHat » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:25 am

Erasa wrote:My point in writing the my post was to a) suggest a little humility before accusing your users of being stupid for not thinking everything is peachy and b) suggest a different way of branding their products in the future to avoid this kind of confusion. Yes - I am fully aware that if PT3 was the only application I ever used and I had done extensive research into the real state of things I would have uncovered the things that you mention - my bad; based on all the good will the development team has accummulated in the past lead me to believe they would follow normal, generally accepted industry "best practices" in rolling out their product. I know now better and will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt until they have regained my trust.

For the record, I think PT2 was a a hell of a product and there is not doubt in due time PT3 will be leaps and bounds beyonds PT2 - but the current situation and loss of good will from a signifcant portion of their user base was completely unnecessary but perhaps not to surprising as my guess is that the folks behind these products are amazingly skilled developers with a love for poker, but much less experience (or/and interest?) in how to introduce a new product to the market place.


Basically, QFT.
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